and

from that point. Well, I shouldn't say from that point, but could you describe your first contact with Steve Jobs my

from very very first content. Yes was at Andy hertzfeld his birthday Andy hertzfeld had his birthday. I don't remember which one it was for nothing

and for people listening or watching. Could you could you sure sure just Define define who that figure is?

Andy hertzfeld was one of the principal software developers of the Macintosh. So he and Bill Atkinson and Susan care and a bunch of other people created the Macintosh and they were all at General magic. And so Andy, you know, he was having his birthday and so he invited the team from General magic to come to his birthday at his house and lo and behold who shows up. I think he was riding his bicycle at time with Steve who was literally I think like living Five or six blocks away. And so he just, you know rolled up on his on his on his bike and he there he was and we were all gathered around because Steve was obviously, you know busy at next at the time and Andy and Andy and Steve had a really close connection and they would always talk about, you know, different Technologies and things and that that was the time when I first got to meet him, you know meet Steve was that

what were your impressions at the time? You

know, you're Starstruck. We're absolutely Starstruck. Oh, that's Steve. Oh my (expletive) are you know and I'm you know, I wasn't think I was 22 at the time something like that. So I was just you know, you know, it's like when you go up to your you know, favorite rock stars something you just don't know what to say. You're bad. You know, you're like, he probably just looked at me weird instead of this crazy kid, but that was it he was but the impression was he was he was He was very definitive in the way. He spoke. You know, he made sure like this is my opinion and that's what it is. And then you could argue with him or whatever and was great. It was a great banter. That was fun. But I also you have to remember at General magic. I would hear Steve stories every day every day you'd hear about something that happened on the Apple 2 or something that happened apple or on the Macintosh team. And so I had this vision of Steve and the stories of Steve from the people who are with him in the most intense times in the most celebratory times or what have you so and I'm sure a lot of those stories where you know larger than they really were and you know, and what have you but so I had this picture and in times you were like, oh my (expletive) absolute genius and other times you're like absolute Madness and you're like should I cower in fear? You know what I mean? So like so you don't really know what to make of it because you have this incredible impression of a person Before you really met them and

I can imagine, you know, the fish was this big type stories and all the all the elaboration that comes in with dramatic storytelling, especially when you have such good raw material to begin with is

exactly Insignia. So I will ask

you more about Steve